Meet Head Librarian: Marcus Seraphine

Happy National Library Lovers’ Month from Dunwoody College of Technology!

Did you know February is National Library Lovers’ Month? Help Dunwoody celebrate by getting to know one of the College’s newest employees: Head Librarian Marcus Seraphine!

Q&A With Marcus Seraphine:

Marcus Seraphine, Head Librarian at Dunwoody College of TechnologyQ: Where did you grow up?

A: I grew up in Brooklyn Center, so not too far from Dunwoody.

Q: What was your job prior to joining Dunwoody?

A: My last job was being the librarian at Kamehameha Schools- Maui Campus in Hawaii.

Q: Why did you decide to work at Dunwoody/move back to MN?

A: I am originally from the Twin Cities, so I have always known about Dunwoody. I have a few family members and friends from high school who have gone through programs here and they all had positive things to say about the college. So, when I saw there was an opening here in my field I was really interested in it.

I have not really lived in Minnesota since high school. I did my undergraduate degree in Education at the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire and after that I taught in Chippewa Falls and South Korea. I came back to the U.S. to get a Master’s in Library Science and worked in the library at Chippewa Valley Technical College before going to Hawaii for two years. After all of that moving around I wanted to try and find something closer to family.

Q: What’s your favorite thing about Dunwoody:

A: I really like how there are so many different programs/areas of study going on in such a small space. It is really interesting to be able to walk from a machine shop on the Black Level, to a photo studio on the Red Level, and then be able to listen to a guest speaker in the McNamara. Also Fred’s waffle fries in the cafeteria are really good.

Q: How long have you known you wanted to be a librarian:

A: I am a little surprised I became a librarian. It was never a career I thought I would get into growing up. I did not know I wanted to be a librarian until I was in college. I was an Education major and during my third year of college I started working in my university’s library. It seemed like a lot of the things the librarians were doing were very similar to what I was learning about in my Education classes and it felt like a good fit for me.

Q: What are a few of your hobbies?

I like to travel, go to concerts, watch football, and find new restaurants.

Q: What is your favorite book?

Asking a librarian/former English teacher to choose their favorite book is really difficult! I have to pick at least two. I mostly read nonfiction, historical fiction, or science fiction. One of my favorite books is called Shantaram. It’s a novel about an Australian man who escapes from prison and starts a new life in India. My other favorite is A Canticle for Leibowitz. That is a science fiction book about what happens in the United States after a nuclear war.

Q: Anything else students should know about you?

A: It’s ok to talk in the library; I won’t “shush” you.

Marcus can be found in either the Butler Library on the Black Level or the Design Library on the Red Level Monday-Friday, 8 a.m. – 4:30 p.m. He can also be reached at

Welcome to Dunwoody, Marcus, and Happy National Library Lovers’ Month to all!

Dunwoody teams win Third and Fifth at 7th Annual Autonomous Snowplow Competition

Dunwoody teams also received the Dr. Nattu Natarajan Best Sportsmanship Award


Dunwoody College of Technology recently competed in the Institute of Navigation (ION)’s Autonomous Snowplow Competition held during the St. Paul Winter Carnival in Rice Park January 26-29. The College entered two robotic snowplows–the Snow Devil and the Wendigo.

The Snow Devils earned fifth place and a $700 prize, while Team Wendigo placed third, earning a $2000 prize and the Bronze Snow Globe Award.

The College, as a whole, also brought home a $500 prize for the Dr. Nattu Natarajan Golden Smile Award for best sportsmanship. The Award is named after University of Michigan-Dearborn professor Dr. Narasimhamurthi Natarajan (often called “Nattu”) who was known for his quick, insightful analysis followed by a joke and a smile.

Nattu passed away from a lung illness on the Saturday morning of the 2016 competition while his two teams were competing. ION renamed its team sportsmanship award in honor of his leadership.

This year, thirteen teams from the top engineering universities in the Upper Midwest participated. Dunwoody is one of just two schools that have been competing in the annual event since it first began in 2011. The College has since taken home several awards, including a third place prize in 2016.

Dunwoody adds new robot to roster

This year, Dunwoody decided to try something new by adding a second robot to its snowplow roster.

“With the new engineering programs coming online, we had a lot of interest from our Mechanical Engineering students,” Dean of Robotics & Manufacturing E.J. Daigle said. “We always have interest from our Automated Systems & Robotics students. We even had a welder interested in it this year. So we had a lot more interest up front.”

From To to Bottom: Team Wendigo, Snow Devils

From To to Bottom: Team Wendigo, Snow Devils

 The Snow Devil was built to compete in the first year of the competition. Since then, students have refined and added to this original design. The robot functions by following magnetic strips that can be installed on any sidewalk or driveway.

The new Wendigo machine was created to complement the Snow Devil.

“When I found out they were letting us build a whole new robot, I thought, okay, we need to make this separate from the Snow Devil,” Automated Systems & Robotics student William Hiniker said. “Wendigo sounded cool and scary, so we went with Wendigo. Hopefully, you know, people see it move snow and they say, ‘wow that looks cool’”

The Wendigo uses a combination of a machine vision system and an inertial measurement unit to navigate up and down sidewalks and driveways.

The teams presented their designs to a panel of judges on Thursday evening at the Minnesota Science Museum. After safety checks on Friday night, the teams competed on the sidewalk-clearing course on Saturday and then took on the driveway course on Sunday.

Learn more about Dunwoody’s School of Engineering and Robotics & Manufacturing Department.

Congratulations to our 2016 December Graduates!

Dunwoody College of Technology is delighted to recognize the following students who graduated from the College in December 2016.

Dunwoody’s Commencement ceremony for both winter and spring graduates will take place Saturday, May 20, at 11 a.m. at the Minneapolis Convention Center.

Applied Management
Anderson Mark
Cole Alan
Automotive Technology
Davis Ryan
Flowers Martice
Gatlin Dondrell
Gerold Mark
Shorter Zachary
Sorensen James
Toenjes Zachary
Wood Parker
Yang Sher
Computer Technology
About Alexandra
Arrington Kyle
Autey Brandon
Chamberlain Connor
Curry Sean
Duncan Scott
Dunn Parker
Felix-Carlson Nicholas
Holmgren Benjamin
Jackson Tanner
Januszewski Paul
Jones Erric
Miller Nicholas
Mroue Kareem
Peterson Jon
Rumpza Nathan
Schopp Benjamin
Seese Jesse
Thormodsgaard Jacob
Wilson Christopher
Construction Sciences & Building Technology
Allen Jacob
Becker Kaitlin
Dilts Stephen
Flagg Andrew
Gabler Zachary
Giese Parker
Guild Luke
Henry Andrew
Henry Josh
Her Peng
Johnson Briana
Johnson Chris
Knutson Kyle
Lee Fu
Littlejohn Brent
Mandt Kerry
Mannella Matthew
Miller Charles
Monson Christopher
Ofsthun Justin
Oldenburg Jared
Pevensie Brian
Pliego-Geniz Brenda
Poindexter Elijah
Rodriguez Brandon
Rodriguez Roberto
Rudolph Henry
Silverberg Stanley
Strand Jason
Swanson Gene
Trask Keith
Weinberger Max
Weinberger Samuel
Witzany Brian
Design & Graphics Technology
Stephens Michael
Health Sciences
Bachmeyer Summer
Boie Brittney
Canfield Kayla
Erickson Rami
Gulden Andrhea
Kotila Kimberley
Olson Joshua
Robotics & Manufacturing
Bauer Christopher
Bigham Wynn
Bloom Jacob
Blossom Thomas
Busse Derek
Conley Ryan
Edwards David
Eitrheim Jacob
Erickson Corey
Hanson Steven
Houngsombath Oudomphone
Hruby Nathan
Hurrle Andrew
Johnson Jeffrey
Kelly Spencer
Klebs Michael
Landvik-Geyen Carson
Lee Kao
Lofgren Rene
Ngaima Momo
Posthumus Christopher
Reese Richard
Ross Jason
Sang Houn
Shaw Jeffrey
Sheforgen Ryan
Stafford Mark
Steiner Gary
Theis Jesse
Vang Choua
Wayman Marcus
Zierke Meicyn

Students compete in Autonomous Snowplow Competition at St. Paul Winter Carnival

This weekend, two teams of students will be competing in the 7th Annual Autonomous Snowplow Competition in Rice Park, St. Paul.

Come support Dunwoody College of Technology students at the 7th Annual ION Snowplow Competition during the St. Paul Winter Carnival in Rice Park this weekend! Snowplows will be competing from 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. both Saturday and Sunday.

Dunwoody students have competed in the Institute of Navigation (ION) Autonomous Snow Plow Competition every year for the last six years. The competition challenges college students to design and build a robotic snowplow that can clear both a sidewalk and a driveway without any human interaction.

“This competition gives us a good chance to apply what we’ve learned in our courses,” said Automated Systems & Robotics student Nick Hajlo.

From To to Bottom: Team Wendigo, Snow Devils

From Top to Bottom: Team Wendigo, Snow Devils

This year, Dunwoody will compete with two robots – the Snow Devil and the Wendigo.

The Snow Devil was built to compete in the first year of the competition. Since then, students have refined and added to this original design. The robot earned Third Place in last year’s competition and students hope their design improvements will place them in the top two this year. The robot follows magnetic strips that can be installed on any sidewalk or driveway.

The Wendigo; however, was designed and built just this year. Students from Welding, Automated Systems & Robotics, and Electronics Engineering Technology collaborated to bring this robot to life from the ground up. The Wendigo uses a combination of a machine vision system and an inertial measurement unit to navigate up and down sidewalks and driveways.

Dunwoody students will be competing alongside teams from Case Western Reserve University, Iowa State University, Michigan Technological University, North Dakota State University, University of Michigan, University of Minnesota, University of St. Thomas, and Wayne State University.

The teams will present their designs to a panel of judges on Thursday evening at the Minnesota Science Museum. On Friday night, they’ll go through final safety checks before competing on Saturday and Sunday.

Learn more about Dunwoody’s Robotics & Manufacturing Department.

Dunwoody College of Technology’s 2016 Fall Semester Dean’s List

Congratulations to the following students who have been named to Dunwoody College of Technology’s 2016 fall semester dean’s list. The students listed received this honor by upholding a 3.5 (or higher) grade point average, while being a full-time student*.

About Alexandra
Albers Samuel
Al-Hilwani Alexander
Allen Jacob
Anderson Benjamin
Anderson Katelyn
Anderson Tyler
Andreas Ryan
Arndt Angela
Arnold Alysa
Arrington Kyle
Augustine Megan
Autey Brandon
Bachman Bryce
Bachorik Benjamin
Bailey Nicholas
Bares Tyler
Barkley Paul
Barnum Wendy
Barrett Chayse
Bates Kelly
Bautch John
Becker Ikaria
Beery Kyle
Benton Andrew
Biros Hannah
Blaha Ryan
Blesener Andrew
Blommer Dillion
Boie Erik
Booth Adam
Bosak Jack
Boyer Madeline
Bredeson Jordan
Brinkman Joshua
Broadston Joseph
Brownson Alex
Brummer Brandon
Burg Anthony
Caddy Chad
Campbell Matthew
Carlin Samuel
Carlson Anna
Cassidy Brandt
Cha Melysia
Chang Ma
Christian Brady
Christner Samantha
Clark Trenton
Clipperton Elijah
Coffin Nathan
Coleman Peter
Connoy Paul
Curtin John
Dahlquist Aaron
Dallman James
Dao Tommy
Darden Jazmine
Davis Michael
DeCurtins Adam
Dehnke Nathan
Deluna Walldo
Dillie Kyle
Douty Jacob
Duncan Scott
Dunn Parker
Durdahl Daniel
Edgerton Marydithe
Eineke Michael
El Hmamsi Adam
Ellison Joseph
Emly Cole
Enoch Jacob
Erickson Jon
Erickson Travis
Ernst Erik
Evans Conner
Evans Dustin
Factor Noah
Fahey Kaela
Fanslow Jared
Faraone Dale
Fischer Paige
Fisher Rachel
Fjerstad Benjamin
Flaherty Connor
Fletschock Rachelle
Forslund Ryan
Frantti Bret
Frederick Hans
Freeland Angela
Friendshuh Dustin
Frisbie Eric
Fujitake Mark
Gainous David
Gandrud Alexander
Gaona Genesis
Gatzke Caitlin
Gedion Sisay
Genzler Michael
Gerold Mark
Gonzalez Isai
Grindahl Robert
Grommersch James
Grzeskowiak Jason
Guild Luke
Guion John
Haak Samantha
Hajlo Nicholas
Halbert Lonnie Joe
Hall Erik
Halloran Keven
Halvorson Neil
Hammerlund Sandra
Hammond Kaitlyn
Hammond Robert
Hannover Danial
Hansen Chad
Hansen Karl
Harein Joshua
Harris Ryan
Hart Jessica
Haugen Brann
Hawks Anthony
Hays Caleb
Heitman Robert
Her Peng
Herber Logan
Herrick Matthew
Hertel Jessica
Hibbs Andrew
Hiepler Michael
High Anina
Hill Joshua
Hill Tiara
Hiniker William
Hlavka Eric
Ho Tan
Holmgren Benjamin
Hruby Nathan
Humphrey Katherine
Hunerberg Benjamin
Hurd Daniel
Huycke Megan
Hyland Troy
Isackson-Rod Indigo
Isetts Blake
Itkonen Jonathan
Janda Peter
Janiak Jordan
Jenkins Katherine
Jensen Leo
Jeske John
Jocelyn Jeremy
Johnson Andrew
Johnson Brent
Johnson Jacob
Johnson Kari
Johnson Kyle
Keizer Brandon
Kelliher John
Kelly Stephen
Keohanam Souvanno
Kerner Thomas
Kieger Michael
Kij Jan
Kiltinen Shelby
King Nathan
Klegstad Jacob
Kloos Brian
Knoll Adam
Koerner Megan
Koren Alexis
Kostelecky Lucas
Kowal Patrick
Kragt Saige
Kretsu Michael
Kromschroeder Kasey
Kuchta Benjamin
Kuennen Connor
Kuhnley Wesley
LaFrance Collin
Larkin Kyle
Larsen Benjamin
Larson Maria
Le Ngoc Khanh
Le Thanh
Lee Fu
Lehman Connor
Leistico Jonathan
LeMay Ashley
Levine Charles
Levine Isaak
Lewis Dexter
Liend Bryan
Linahon Alex
Lofgren Chad
Lord Alexander
Luangrath Bennieco
Lueddecke Alec
Lutz Ashley
Mabusth John
Machtemes Joseph
Madden Daniel
Madison Andrew
Magnuson Scott
Maier Dana
Malenke Jay
Mandt Kerry
Maranga Francis
Matejka Brennen
Maupin Erik
McGinn Patrick
McLaury Lacy
McNamer Patrick
McReynolds Anthony
Meier Shane
Meyer Jacob
Meyer Mickie
Miazga Michael
Miller Charles
Mingo Tanner
Mitchell Christian
Mitchell Steven
Molenaar Michael
Monson Christopher
Montgomery Madison
Moore Bradley
Morales Emily
Moyer Sean
Moynihan John
Mrdjenovich Maranda
Muckala Jonathan
Mulqueeny Sean
Nakada Michael
Naslund Zachary
Nelson Celina
Nelson Jenna
Nelson Matthew
Nelson Nathaniel
Ness Davis
Newby Duncan
Nguyen Son
Nordstrom Jay
Northway Travis
O’Brien Brandon
Oldenburg Thomas
Olson Andrew
Olson Steven
Orenge Gaudencia
Pagel Tyler
Parker-Greene Taylor
Pearson Joshua
Peltonen Cody
Peraza Karina
Petersen Andrew
Peterson Ben
Peterson Henning
Peterson Jon
Peterson Matthew
Peterson Nolan
Petrie Kristofer
Pevensie Brian
Phandanouvong Sylvester
Poitra Jason
Posterick Donald
Pysher Mitchell
Regenscheid Steven
Richey Michael
Roberts Cory
Robinson Blake
Rodewald Madelyn
Rodriguez Marcos
Roeun Saray
Rog Matthew
Rogers Joshua
Rono Makto
Rosecrans Caleb
Rue Nicholas
Ruelle Paul
Rumpza Nathan
Salcido Alejandro
Samrith Dona
Sapp Justin
Schafer Taylor
Schmitz Andrew
Schneider Lucas
Schon Matthew
Schulz Patrick
Schumacher Brianna
Sebesta Taylor
Seurer Kurtis
Sheforgen Ryan
Sheppard Jason
Shoemaker Ethan
Skattum Ross
Sloan Adam
Smeaton Kyle
Smith Gabriel
Smith Katrina
Smith Luke
Smoter Devyn
Snyder Matthew
Sorensen James
Spartz John
St. Martin Isaac
Stafford Mark
Steffens Paul
Stolp Craig
Swanson Gene
Syrstad Luke
Teipel Holly
Thao Jesse
Thiery Anthony
Thompson Andrew
Thompson Kathleen
Thompson Seth
Thompson Tyler
Toenges Bradley
Tomann Alek
Torma Garron
Towne Peter
Tran Jacob
Treat Daniel
Trembulak Timothy
Tungseth Anton
Turnbull John
Unger Andrew
Valley Jesse
VanderVorste Adam
VanderWal Julie
VanDoeren Julian
VanRoekel Garrett
Vath Rachel
Villalobos Marcos
Virnala JJ
Vue Tou
Wakeham Shannon
Walczak Joel
Waldof Karen
Waller Justin
Wallin Marc
Wambach Daniel
Weiler Jerilyn
Weinberger Max
Weinberger Samuel
Welch Braden
White Beverly
White Reid
Wieden Darren
Wiisanen Christopher
Williams Michael
Wilson Christopher
Winget Andrea
Wittrock Erica
Wood Lynnette
Xiong Cheenou
Xiong Jewell
Yamada Cortez
Yang Cha
Yang Pierre
Yardley Shoshana
Zdon Christopher
Zentner Ryan
Zmuda Charles

*Student must take a minimum of 12 credits to be considered full-time. 

Land Surveying certificate offers additional job opportunities to those with bachelor’s degrees

Why four students chose to change career paths and head back to college.

Dunwoody College land surveying certificate studentsBetter pay. More job opportunities. The ability to work outside. A more defined career path.

Those are just a few of the reasons why—despite already having bachelor’s degrees—Kyle Knutson, Chris Johnson, Stanley Silverberg, and Briana Johnson decided to go back to college.

One year later, all four students have graduated from Dunwoody’s Land Surveying certificate program and agree they are leaving with a much brighter future.

Dunwoody’s Land Surveying certificate helps students find their niche 

“I have a bachelor’s degree in Wilderness Leadership, but I was looking to learn a [more] specific skill,” Chris Johnson said. “I enjoy being outdoors, and land surveying seemed like a good option.”

Kyle Knutson, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

Kyle Knutson, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

Graduate Kyle Knutson agreed:

“I found myself looking for a career that combines my passion for geography with the ability to be out of doors while at work,” Knutson said. “This program is perfectly suited for someone like myself with a bachelor’s degree who is looking to move into the surveying field.”

While Dunwoody also offers a two-year associate’s degree in Surveying & Civil Engineering Technology, the Land Surveying certificate is unique in that it specifically targets students who already have a bachelor’s degree and are possibly interested in becoming a professional surveyor.

The coursework builds on student’s existing bachelor’s degrees, offering a quicker route to the surveying profession. Most students complete the certificate in just two semesters.

Chris Johnson, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

Chris Johnson, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

Program graduates are prepared to become Land Surveyors in Training (LSIT), which work under a licensed surveyor and assist in the collection of data and mapping of the earth’s surface. They are employed by a wide array of governmental agencies, including counties, cities, and states, in addition to private contracting and land surveying firms.

“The goal is to help students who maybe didn’t have a clear idea of what their future looked like before,” Surveying & Civil Engineering Technology Principal Instructor Kelly Ness said.

Stanley Silverberg, who has a Bachelor of Arts degree in Communications, shared that his unclear future began just weeks before the start of the program:

“I was laid off in December of 2015,” he said. “I had [previously] worked for an engineering company doing land surveying, and I decided to pursue a formal education in the profession to help with employment opportunities in the future.”

Certificate builds on existing skills, adds hands-on training
Stanley Silverberg, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

Stanley Silverberg, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

With prior experience in the field and a bachelor’s degree from the University of Iowa, Silverberg was a perfect applicant for the program.

“The types of bachelor’s degrees or related work experience that work especially well with this certificate include geography, earth sciences, math, and physics,” Ness said.

Students then expand on their existing skills and knowledge by participating in hands-on projects as well as training on industry-standard equipment.

Throughout the program, students take a wide variety of lectures and labs in areas such as 2D and 3D drafting, boundary control, and land use planning. They also prepare for industry by becoming familiar with the technologies they can expect to find out on the job, including computer-aided drafting programs (CAD) and the latest in GNSS (GPS) technology.

At the end of the year, graduates are eligible to take the Fundamentals of Land Surveying (FLS) exam to become Land Surveyors in Training (LSIT). Upon gaining the required experience under a licensed surveyor, graduates will then be able to take the Fundamentals of Surveying (FS) exam to become professional land surveyors.

Briana Johnson, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

Briana Johnson, Dunwoody College Land Surveying Certificate Graduate

The national median salary for professional land surveyors in Minnesota is $70,620 annually*—a selling point for Briana Johnson.

“I was not making enough money with what I was doing [previously],” Johnson said. “I chose Dunwoody because of the cost and the hands-on experience that I would get with the programs.

“I am excited to be able to support myself financially and enjoy the job that I am doing.”

Learn more

Dunwoody College’s Land Surveying certificate offers 22 technical credits in land surveying, as currently required by the MN board of licensure (AELSLAGID). The program takes approximately one year to complete.

To see if you are eligible for enrollment, contact Kelly Ness or visit for more information.

If you do not have a bachelor’s degree but are interested in becoming a surveying technician, Dunwoody College also has a two-year associate’s degree in Surveying & Civil Engineering Technology.

Learn about both programs at our next open house on Tuesday, February 7.

*Based on May 2015 State Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates for the state of Minnesota published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics,


Changing Lives Through Scholarships: Danny Treat

Scholarship Spotlight
Danny Treat, Engineering Drafting & Design
Expected Graduation: May 2017
Owen Family Fund for Prosperity Scholarship

Danny Treat has always had a lot of interests in life. But Dunwoody College of Technology has given him the focus and drive he needed to steer those interests onto a promising career path.

Growing up in San Diego, Treat struggled with traditional high school, but found success at a charter school that emphasized real work experience.

With interests that spanned a wide spectrum of fields, Treat explored multiple options at a community college before admitting he just wasn’t ready for more school.

Treat was interested in several service-learning programs available through non-profit organizations. He eventually settled on a three-month commitment with Catholic Charities, helping rebuild homes in New Orleans. He continued that work with AmeriCorps, eventually serving as one of the project managers and volunteer coordinators.

A hands-on learner, Treat enjoyed the carpentry and construction aspects of the job, but he also liked the idea of helping design a project. With those interests in mind, Treat enrolled at the University of New Orleans in the naval architecture and marine engineering program.

But the four-year, traditional college model wasn’t a good fit. “There was no ‘hands-on’ learning,” Treat said, adding that it wasn’t until the final year of the program that you got to do the “fun stuff.”

By this time, Treat had met his now fiancée who was from the Twin Cities and wanted to move back to start her teaching career.

The couple moved to Minneapolis and Treat found work installing closets, and looked into joining the electrical union. It was his fiancée’s mother, who happens to be a career counselor, who first suggested Dunwoody as an option.

So Treat attended an open house and checked out a number of programs before hearing about the Engineering Drafting & Design program.

“When I saw the 3D printers and heard about the program I knew that was it,” Treat said.

It was decision he never regretted. “I felt more at home here than I did at either the community college or the four-year university,” Treat said. “I connected more.”

Treat was impressed with all of the hands-on work, and with a 3.96 GPA, he has excelled in all of his coursework. Treat is also one of the 2016-17 Owen Scholarship recipients.

“I haven’t had a day when I haven’t wanted to come to school,” Treat said.

He already has an internship with Proto Labs, an on-demand manufacturer of custom prototypes using CNC machining, injection molding and 3D printing.

After graduating, Treat wants to find a career that allows him to utilize all of the skills he’s learned – from design to build. “I want to design the stuff and then help make it,” Treat said.

If you’d like to help someone like Danny with a scholarship gift, donate online at or contact Mary Meador at 612-381-3048 or